The process of changes is ongoing
Francisco
Aruca chats with Manuel Ramy
By
Manuel Alberto Ramy
Excerpts
from conversation broadcast Jan. 7, 2008, in the program ‘Yesterday
in Miami’ hosted by Cuban-American journalist Francisco Aruca.
Francisco
Aruca: Dear friends, we are
in Havana, and before leaving for the airport I decided to hold a
conversation with Radio Progreso Alternativa’s Havana correspondent,
Manuel Ramy.
My first
question, Ramy, is that the media and various persons in Miami,
myself included, have been emphasizing that there will be changes in
Cuba but that they will be made in a slow and careful manner. I have
said the changes will become important and that it is very possible
that they will begin in the economic field. Nevertheless, there are
people in Miami who say that reforms in Cuba are at a standstill.
Give us your opinion.
From
Havana Read Spanish Version
The
process of changes is ongoing
Francisco
Aruca chats with Manuel Ramy
By
Manuel Alberto Ramy
maprogre@gmail.com
Excerpts
from conversation broadcast Jan. 7, 2008, in the program ‘Yesterday
in Miami’ hosted by Cuban-American journalist Francisco Aruca.
Francisco
Aruca: Dear friends, we are
in Havana, and before leaving for the airport I decided to hold a
conversation with Radio Progreso Alternativa’s Havana correspondent,
Manuel Ramy.
My first
question, Ramy, is that the media and various persons in Miami,
myself included, have been emphasizing that there will be changes in
Cuba but that they will be made in a slow and careful manner. I have
said the changes will become important and that it is very possible
that they will begin in the economic field. Nevertheless, there are
people in Miami who say that reforms in Cuba are at a standstill.
Give us your opinion.
Manuel
Alberto Ramy: I insist
on viewpoints that I have expressed throughout [2007]. In the first
place, reforms are inevitable, because they are demanded by reality
and the Cuban population. At issue are the satisfaction of basic
needs of the population, and the continuity of the revolutionary
process. And I would even say that the fate of the Cuban nation is at
issue.
Secondly,
this is a dual process, that is, reforms that can create both a new
model of socialism and a transit toward a new generation of leaders.
This transit toward a new generation of national leaders is also an
inevitable fact and has been occurring for quite a while. The
generation that started the insurrection and has directed the
[revolutionary] process is relaying the baton to other runners.
Thirdly,
this dual process of reforms and relays is occurring within the
system and is a factor of the pace, of the speed of the changes. The
purpose is to reform socialism, not to destroy it, and the process is
generated by established actors, structures and institutions that
have habits, customs, even faces.
Aruca:
Do you refer specifically to the Cuban government and Communist
Party? If these are factors that affect the pace of the changes, what
other factors exist?
Ramy:
The sponsor of this
process is the established power. It was Raúl Castro who, in
his speech on July 26, 2007, announced that structural changes were
required — nothing spectacular, he said — as well as a change in
the mentality of behaving and acting.
The
structural changes basically affect the economy, they make it
efficient. To do that, it is essential to foster consensus in the
circles of power and within a bureaucracy that — as in any other
country — exists through control.
Aruca:
Are you referring to possible bureaucracies within both the
government and the Party?
Ramy:
Exactly, at all levels there is a strong bureaucracy here.
Aruca:
In both institutions?
Ramy:
In both.
There are changes that would mean a loss of control, and therefore a
loss of bureaucratic power. Bureaucracy lives from control; that’s
its space of power.
The
other factors of the speed in the implementation of measures come
from the population and the geopolitical context in which the country
is moving. I specifically refer to the policy toward Cuba maintained
by the United States for the past 50 years.
Aruca:
Let’s not mix the U.S. with the population just yet. You say that one
of the factors is the population. When you say ‘population,’ do you
mean the petition for reforms that the population considers to be
necessary?
Ramy:
Exactly. It is the people and reality. The people are expressing the
reality, the needs that have been postponed for such a long time and
have not been solved. The intellectual world is working and operating
on that reality; in other words, in the interviews I’ve made among
people in the academic world, everybody insists on the same.
Therefore, the government and the Party have to respond, particularly
the Party, which is constitutionally defined as the vanguard of Cuban
society. And a vanguard that separates itself from its base becomes
isolated.
Aruca:
A vanguard that does not respond to the needs that are clearly
posited by the people.
Ramy:
Exactly. Therefore, if [the vanguard] becomes isolated, a split
occurs between the power and society. And at some later moment,
society will overwhelm the power. It’s as simple as that.
Aruca:
In other words, for that reason, the people are one of the factors
that determine — and will end up determining — the pace of change.
Now, you were going to talk about the U.S. policy as another factor.
Ramy:
Yes. But first let me say that the scenario of contradictions is
perfectly salvageable within the circles of power and the Communist
Party. And that’s one of the factors at play.
The
other factor is the people’s pressure, from the standpoint of
undeniable realities. That’s precisely one of the reasons for the
recent calls for open discussion, which have been held and have
resulted in more than a million proposals, according to Raúl
Castro.
Pressure
from below, upward, supports the need for change and is a factor that
limits the power of bureaucracy. When we talk about structures, we
talk about forms, grades, levels of relationship. When we talk about
economic structures, we talk about other modes of property that are
perfectly compatible with socialism, or about the role the market
might play — whether it would be central or peripheral — or about
the degree of decentralization of sectors of the economy.
We must
also realize that it is a question of calibrating the depth and
direction of the changes, so that they won’t go beyond what’s
sensible. For these reasons, we’re looking at a process in stages
that, in my opinion, is being measured cautiously.
Washington
certainly has an effect on this entire process. It has had an effect
in the entire 50-year history of the Cuban revolution, and the role
its pressures have played is very clear. First, at the level of the
people, [Washington’s stance] is an element of cohesion, of unity,
that looms more serious than any everyday problems because it
represents the threat of imperialism, 90 miles away, and what it
wants to do is to destroy. You can gauge how much, or how little, the
people have achieved, but [Washington] is one of the factors that
stimulate cohesion.
Aruca:
The Cuban people do not want to run the risk of losing all the good
things that may have been achieved.
Ramy:
I see no evidence that they’re willing to do that, so far. On the
other hand, the role being played by U.S. foreign policy toward Cuba
at this point reinforces the position of the hardliners within the
system. They can argue that, because of the threats from the U.S.,
there can be no opening.
However,
that’s only one side of the coin. The other is that the pressures
from the [Bush] administration also reinforce the need for change [in
Cuba], because this country cannot live constantly thinking in a
reality …
Aruca:
I conclude that, in your opinion, the people’s need for better
answers to a series of basic problems is probably the most important
factor. U.S. foreign policy, too, plays an important role.
There
was a time when more people would have said that the [Cuban]
government is using foreign policy as an excuse not to make internal
changes. But you say that the changes will come from domestic
reasons, whether or not the U.S. changes its policy. If U.S. policy
becomes less aggressive, the changes would take place with greater
ease.
You say
that, to a great degree, the needs of the people are the primary
factor that will explain how the changes will be made.
Ramy:
You have understood me correctly. The needs of the people are the
primary and determining factor. If U.S. foreign policy limits the
depth and direction of the changes, that’s something else. Within a
context of good relations, the Cuban government probably could take
the steps it wishes to take, something it wouldn’t do within a
context of a permanent threat to the Cuban nation. The latter
situation would hinder the normal development of a process [of
change].
The
determining element is the reality and the national factors. The
United States is not going to move from where is sits, and the island
of Cuba is not going to move from its geographic location.
Aruca:
You mentioned Raúl’s speech on July 26. But Raúl also
delivered a speech on Dec. 28 at the National Assembly, and we all
concluded that it was a very important speech. Please comment on the
importance of that speech.
Ramy:
Raúl Castro has made four major speeches in little more than
one year. One was not given much publicity by the media because it
was a gathering with students at the University of Havana. Rather, it
was a charming and very pleasant conversation, according to students
who were there. He told anecdotes about his childhood, his youth and
more or less said that the time for generational change was upon us.
Then
came the ground-breaking speech on July 26, which was a critical (and
self-critical) speech and served as the starter’s pistol shot. He
spoke about structural changes and changes of mentality. As a result
of it, assemblies were held at all levels of Cuban society, with the
participation of more than 5 million citizens and the presentation of
more than one million proposals.
Then
came his appearance Dec. 24 in Santiago de Cuba. As you know, Fidel
is a candidate to Parliament for Santiago de Cuba. In his name, Raúl
toured the barrios, the municipalities, everywhere.
There,
[Raúl] said he gave Fidel Castro his speech of July 26 to read
in advance, and said that Fidel didn’t correct a single comma. What
did he mean by that? That there are no discrepancies. In other words,
Fidel Castro is totally in accord with Raúl Castro’s statement
of July 26.
Further,
on Dec. 28, Fidel sent a letter to the National Assembly in which he
said Raúl had shown him the speech he planned to deliver
there, and that [Fidel] had read it and was raising his hand to
support [Raúl]. What does that mean? That there is a perfect
agreement between the two fundamental figures in government.
Some
analysts see Raúl as the more pragmatic person, perhaps more
willing to implement some measures swiftly, while Fidel is the more
cautious leader, even though he is strategically in agreement. But
the first thing I conclude from all this is that there is a consensus
between the two figures in power.
From
Raúl’s speech, I would point to several aspects. First, that
the changes must be made by consensus (obviously, he refers to the
deep changes, to the structural changes) and that an integral vision
is needed to make those changes. That means that there is a project
of integral changes, because there are aspects that cannot be fixed
with one measure here, another measure there. That’s the first point
I would stress.
Aruca:
In other words, they are interrelated aspects.
Ramy:
Exactly. But he did talk about measures that can already be
implemented. When he said that a series of laws were established in
the past, regulations that created problems instead of solving them,
what did he mean?
Aruca:
If I remember correctly, he worded it in terms of prohibitions. A
great many prohibitions were enacted that, in turn, created
illegalities.
Ramy:
One thing is clear. There are many prohibitions here, and many things
that are not tolerated, even though they are not prohibitions. I
think that many prohibitions and regulations have actually generated
the underground economy that exists today, and even participate in
it.
I can’t
give you any figures, but I know that at the people’s assemblies, in
the CDRs [Committees for the Defense of the Revolution], in
workplaces, people have made such proposals as allowing citizens to
sell their cars, sell their houses. A series of measures have been
proposed that — if implemented — would give a different style and
movement to the domestic scenario.
Aruca:
Would you include prohibitions such as not permitting a Cuban
national to enter a certain place or eat in a certain [restaurant]?
Ramy:
Yes, and that’s one of the issues that are being studied and require
a consensus. Not only a consensus at the levels of Party and
government but also among population sectors that are not a majority
but that wouldn’t agree with some specific measures. What’s being
sought is the widest consensus possible in whatever is done. For
example, there’s the topic of migration.
I don’t
wish to minimize the impact of 2 million Cubans living outside the
island. I couldn’t tell you the figure, but many Cuban families have
a relative living abroad. There is a complex migratory problem that
goes from "the white card" that enables a citizen to leave
the country to the rights of the émigré. I think that’s
also on the table of topics to discuss.
The
place where economic changes must begin is the sector of agriculture.
It is essential. Cuba must solve its food problem. If we have
achieved military security, as some say, we must achieve alimentary
security, because in military terms food is part of the rear guard.
Besides, it is one of the problems with the hardest impact.
The
country is spending US$1.5 billion in foodstuffs — practically 70-80
percent of the volume it consumes — yet, the sectors of agriculture
that have given greater results have been the private producers, the
credit-and-service cooperatives, and the basic units of production.
They produce 60-65 percent of what we Cubans eat.
What
does that mean? That the remaining 30 percent comes from state-run
farms — from the state, which
has more land than the private producers.
Therefore, I think that the policy being instituted (not very
publicly) is to distribute more land to the private farmers.
Aruca:
To individual proprietors or families, and
cooperatives?
Ramy:
To both. Let me explain. The credit-and-service cooperatives own land
in which they freely share resources, land, machinery, etc., and
share the revenue. Some cooperatives make more than one million pesos
per year. The problem is that they need raw materials, they need to
spend their money. They don’t want regulations from the Ministry of
Agriculture that only hamper an individual’s productivity.
On the
other hand, they must open spaces for certain levels of consumption.
I don’t mean the farmer’s productive consumption but his enjoyment
consumption, because the farmer may earn 800,000 pesos and then, what
can he do with that money? Will he bury it under a mango tree, or
hide it, because he cannot buy a car, he cannot go someplace and stay
in a hotel?
I
think the turning point in the Cuban economy is the agriculture. The
nation’s leaders are weighing the option to decentralize it, to form
a concept of agriculture in the municipality, to give autonomy to the
municipality to plan and develop the local agriculture. That’s what
[the newspaper] Juventud Rebelde stated.
I
think we must produce more, and to produce more we have to be more
liberal in the treatment of agricultural production and the farmer.
And we have to open space, so that the farmer can spend the money he
makes.
That
experience can then open spaces in the urban sector, service
cooperatives, laundries, industrial production, services that don’t
exist or that exist only in convertible pesos. You cannot manage a
thermonuclear plant and at the same time manage an ice-cream cart.
Aruca:
I think you have touched on the topics that are the most important.
You have provided a viewpoint that I almost completely share,
although I shall reserve some comments for when I play this recorded
interview in Miami. Is there anything more you wish to say?
Ramy:
The process is ongoing, but it’s ongoing from the institutional point
of view, because it comes from within the system. The system needs to
reform itself, although it mustn’t do so at the expense of the
people’s needs.
I think
that we’ll see some things happen in 2008. Maybe they won’t be the
deepest and most integral measures ever — because there must be a
consensus at Party, government and population levels — but there
will be changes.
Manuel
Alberto Ramy is Havana bureau chief of Radio Progreso Alternativa and
editor of Progreso Semanal, the Spanish-language version of Progreso
Weekly.
